The second article for this week talked about points in Saint Teresa's writings where she is writing about sexual experiences as "spiritual experiences". During the excerpt from her autobiography, she goes into an account of a vision with a beautiful angel who pierced her with his "golden spear". Do you think this was a spiritual vision or a sexual experience?
It is extremely clear that Saint Teresa's writings are about an orgasm. And, as Georges Batille writes, "mystics are perfectly aware of the physical sensations accompanying their experience." Since the mystics most likely understood the implied message behind Saint Teresa's writings, why was her work still published despite the clear emphasis on sexuality and pleasure? In addition, did an orgasm have deeper significance beyond sex? Did people truly believe that the physical sensations felt were part of a spiritual enlightenment related through sex?
In Eroticism, by Geroges Bataille, he says that St. Teresa "had felt such an uneartly bliss that she thought G-d himself had descended into her". In this, of course, we know he is referring to her orgasm. Though sexual deviance was looked down upon in this time, I feel like the nuns, like St. Teresa, were in so much erotic pleasure that they felt it was some sort of connection to G-d. If this is the case, why was sex and orgasms so condemned? Who declared that it wasn't some connection to G-d? It was so powerful for St. Teresa that couldn't it be explained as connection to g-d, therefore being powerful, important, and accepted?
The excerpts on Saint Teresa's Vision of the Transverberation are primarily concerned with female orgasm and its relationship to mysticism and spirituality. To me, Karma Lochrie addresses the most interesting point-- namely, "whether female spirituality managed to disrupt patriarchal constructions of the feminine (...) or whether it merely adopted a new forum for the subjection of women." The attention given to examining the process and nature of the female orgasm manifests itself in these texts, and it is only briefly that that the male is alluded to ("This is the place where 'she'--and in some cases he, if he follows 'her' lead--speaks about the dazzling glare..."). It is safe to say that a similar attention is directed at the female orgasm today. Rather than dwelling on the climax of sexual excitement experienced by men, which is supposedly a more given element that is easier for them to achieve, the media tends to highlight the difficulties *women* have in attaining this climax, putting out articles such as "How to help your female partner orgasm," "4 tricks to make her orgasm," etc. Does this male vs. female distinction speak to perceptions about this gender binary in general? Does the image that men "have it easier" by gaining more immediate satisfaction, while women take longer to reach a potential gratification that may not even happen, reflect itself in stereotypes and expectations about males vs. females on the whole?
"In his hands I saw a long golden spear, and at the end of the iron tip I seemed to see a point of fire. With this he seemed to pierce my heart several times so that it penetrated to my entrails. When he drew it out, I thought he was drawing them out with it and he left me completely afire with a great love for God. The pain was so sharp that it made me utter several moans; and so expressive was the sweetness caused me by this intense pain that one can never wish to lose it, nor will one's souls be content with anything less than God."
The writer is referring to 'him'; she says 'he, and his' - "an angel", with a sharp spear who penetrates her and gives her pleasure. I am not sure if I am interpreting this correctly, but she might be even imagining a man. Is it possible that she experiences him as an angelic figure because HE makes her feel ecstasy and pleasure that leads to climax?
We understand from these texts that "she never had a chance to make a comparison" - meaning, she never had sex with a man; but could HE be someone real, someone she met, or just a product of her imagination and fantasy?
Experience such as one this could be seen by Teresa as an extraordinary feeling that has connotation with 'out of this word' state of her body, soul and mind (Angels, God, light, spiritual pain, etc.) which is appropriate for her life situation/position. According to Georges Bataille; " The existence of physical sensations in the course of the ecstasy does not mean in the least that the experience is a specifically sexual one."
In his quote we can see that the interpretation of her experience is clearly open for debate. However, I do believe that the writer expresses feelings of erotic nature and describes her sexual pleasure...
Is this kind of metaphorical writing reminding you in any way of Rossetti's poems?
There is a physical nervous syndrome known as peristent genital arousal syndrome, which matches remarkably well with Theresa's description of her "religious" experience. Theresa being a lady of the cloth, she would not have known how to describe her physical pleasure with a previous experience, and it seems quite possible that her lack of experience in her own sexuality could have caused her to lump any great and grand experience into those of religious nature. If she had not been faithful to her vows and had experienced sexual gratification, it is quite possible she would have recognized the same symptoms and related the two. How often does the deprivation of sexual gratification for church matters prevent the jouissance of religious experience from being overshadowed by that of the physical realm?
Many have mentioned the possibly sexual aspects of Saint Teresa's description of her rapture. Usually people perceive sex as a very carnal and immoral activity, while they think religion is high and spiritual, devoid of such "base" desires. Does this mean that people believe that physical pleasure and spiritual experiences are incompatible with each other? Can sex be a spiritual experience?
There's a question of why experiencing an orgasm spontaneously is considered a blessing from god and something sought after while experiencing an orgasm through mortal means is considered a great sin. Also, would it be even possible to compare the degree of ecstasy between the religious orgasm and actual one since Saint Theresa was a virgin and therefore could not compare the two? There's a possibility that it was a mere tingle exaggerated through rhetoric.
The articles of this week have sexual connotations even though Teresa repeatedly mentions that these feelings are only related to spirituality and mysticism. "The pain was so sharp that it made me utter several moans; and so excessive was the sweetness caused my by this intense pain that one can never wish to lose it, nor will one's soul be content with anything less than God." She is speaking about an orgasm but such sexual inferences are unacceptable. Do sexual and spiritual experiences have to be completely separate during this time? Can this erotic pleasure be a connection to God like Teresa felt?
IS IT THAT THE TO TWO GREATEST FEELINGS, SENSATIONS ETC. ARE THE LOVE OF GOD AND SEXUAL CLIMAX? ONE IS A SIN GIVEN THE CONTEXT AND THE OTHER IS RESERVED FOR THE MOST SPIRITUAL BEINGS. THE COMPARISON OF ONE WITH THE OTHER IS TROUBLING AND INTERESTING AT THE SAME TIME. I'VE NEVER HEARD A MALES EXPERIENCE WITH SPIRITUAL NIRVANA (if I may) COMPARED TO SEXUAL EXCITEMENT. WHY IS THIS? IS IT BECAUSE OF.. 'DUN DUN DUHN' THE PATRIARCHAL INFLUENCE ON ....EVERYTHING? AND, THUS THE LACK OF THE FEMALE PERSPECTIVE ON ALMOST EVERYTHING (PRE-LATE 2OTH CENTURY FEMINISM)?
In "The Life of Teresa of Jesus" reading, there is a quote that really emphasized and reiterated the messages and themes about the previous week but also about the relationship between religion and individuals talked about all throughout the semester. In the sense that, "it seeks ways and means whereby it may express something of what it feels for the love of God; but its initial pain is so great that I know of no physical torture which can drown it." Mentioned in the very first paragraph of this reading, it immediately warns and explains to the reader the vast impact and sacrifice religious individuals must go through. In this sense, I question, does undergoing the absolute worst pain or life qualify an individual to become worthy in the eyes of God today? How about worthy enough to live a longer life than individuals that have lived a rather simple life? If only one life could be saved, who would you choose? Is there ANY instance in which one life is more valuable (ie. kids, elderly, handicapped, white, etc.)? This particular reading discusses the importance of life in God's eyes, but I think it would be even more valuable and insightful to compare that to aethiests and other cultural groups. Grace Huang.
Saint Teresa's vision was probably one of the only ways in which a person could describe this type of ecstasy without it being deemed as 'wrong'. Why wasn't there more of a connection between spiritual and sexual ecstasy? Why didn't society take advantage of the fact that sexual ecstasy could be related to God? It would be interesting to see how the future societies would have been influenced if this had been seen in a slightly different way.
On the second passage under "Saint Teresa's Vision of Transverberations," the author compares Saint Teresa's experience to a woman who had an orgasm while kneeling at an altar. How does something like that occur?
I think that the way in which Santa Teresa's spirituality and sexuality were so closely tied is very interesting. How can religion's suppression of sexuality, nuns' reputation for virtue and purity and some nuns' expression of their sexuality be reconciled? What is it about religion that allows women to express their sexuality in a way that they won't be shamed or hated because of it?
When reading about Saint Teresa's experience, I wonder if it really is so tied to sexuality. The reading says that the pain was more spiritual than physical but that the body played a part. Is it possible that the experience can be likened to strong emotions rather than to a physical act? I know I have definitely had certain emotions after events that were so intense to cause physical aching or joy.
The second article for this week talked about points in Saint Teresa's writings where she is writing about sexual experiences as "spiritual experiences". During the excerpt from her autobiography, she goes into an account of a vision with a beautiful angel who pierced her with his "golden spear". Do you think this was a spiritual vision or a sexual experience?
ReplyDeleteIt is extremely clear that Saint Teresa's writings are about an orgasm. And, as Georges Batille writes, "mystics are perfectly aware of the physical sensations accompanying their experience." Since the mystics most likely understood the implied message behind Saint Teresa's writings, why was her work still published despite the clear emphasis on sexuality and pleasure? In addition, did an orgasm have deeper significance beyond sex? Did people truly believe that the physical sensations felt were part of a spiritual enlightenment related through sex?
ReplyDeleteIn Eroticism, by Geroges Bataille, he says that St. Teresa "had felt such an uneartly bliss that she thought G-d himself had descended into her". In this, of course, we know he is referring to her orgasm. Though sexual deviance was looked down upon in this time, I feel like the nuns, like St. Teresa, were in so much erotic pleasure that they felt it was some sort of connection to G-d. If this is the case, why was sex and orgasms so condemned? Who declared that it wasn't some connection to G-d? It was so powerful for St. Teresa that couldn't it be explained as connection to g-d, therefore being powerful, important, and accepted?
ReplyDeleteThe excerpts on Saint Teresa's Vision of the Transverberation are primarily concerned with female orgasm and its relationship to mysticism and spirituality. To me, Karma Lochrie addresses the most interesting point-- namely, "whether female spirituality managed to disrupt patriarchal constructions of the feminine (...) or whether it merely adopted a new forum for the subjection of women." The attention given to examining the process and nature of the female orgasm manifests itself in these texts, and it is only briefly that that the male is alluded to ("This is the place where 'she'--and in some cases he, if he follows 'her' lead--speaks about the dazzling glare..."). It is safe to say that a similar attention is directed at the female orgasm today. Rather than dwelling on the climax of sexual excitement experienced by men, which is supposedly a more given element that is easier for them to achieve, the media tends to highlight the difficulties *women* have in attaining this climax, putting out articles such as "How to help your female partner orgasm," "4 tricks to make her orgasm," etc. Does this male vs. female distinction speak to perceptions about this gender binary in general? Does the image that men "have it easier" by gaining more immediate satisfaction, while women take longer to reach a potential gratification that may not even happen, reflect itself in stereotypes and expectations about males vs. females on the whole?
ReplyDelete"In his hands I saw a long golden spear, and at the end of the iron tip I seemed to see a point of fire. With this he seemed to pierce my heart several times so that it penetrated to my entrails. When he drew it out, I thought he was drawing them out with it and he left me completely afire with a great love for God. The pain was so sharp that it made me utter several moans; and so expressive was the sweetness caused me by this intense pain that one can never wish to lose it, nor will one's souls be content with anything less than God."
ReplyDeleteThe writer is referring to 'him'; she says 'he, and his' - "an angel", with a sharp spear who penetrates her and gives her pleasure. I am not sure if I am interpreting this correctly, but she might be even imagining a man.
Is it possible that she experiences him as an angelic figure because HE makes her feel ecstasy and pleasure that leads to climax?
We understand from these texts that "she never had a chance to make a comparison" - meaning, she never had sex with a man; but could HE be someone real, someone she met, or just a product of her imagination and fantasy?
Experience such as one this could be seen by Teresa as an extraordinary feeling that has connotation with 'out of this word' state of her body, soul and mind (Angels, God, light, spiritual pain, etc.) which is appropriate for her life situation/position. According to Georges Bataille; " The existence of physical sensations in the course of the ecstasy does not mean in the least that the experience is a specifically sexual one."
In his quote we can see that the interpretation of her experience is clearly open for debate. However, I do believe that the writer expresses feelings of erotic nature and describes her sexual pleasure...
Is this kind of metaphorical writing reminding you in any way of Rossetti's poems?
There is a physical nervous syndrome known as peristent genital arousal syndrome, which matches remarkably well with Theresa's description of her "religious" experience. Theresa being a lady of the cloth, she would not have known how to describe her physical pleasure with a previous experience, and it seems quite possible that her lack of experience in her own sexuality could have caused her to lump any great and grand experience into those of religious nature. If she had not been faithful to her vows and had experienced sexual gratification, it is quite possible she would have recognized the same symptoms and related the two. How often does the deprivation of sexual gratification for church matters prevent the jouissance of religious experience from being overshadowed by that of the physical realm?
ReplyDeleteMany have mentioned the possibly sexual aspects of Saint Teresa's description of her rapture. Usually people perceive sex as a very carnal and immoral activity, while they think religion is high and spiritual, devoid of such "base" desires. Does this mean that people believe that physical pleasure and spiritual experiences are incompatible with each other? Can sex be a spiritual experience?
ReplyDeleteThere's a question of why experiencing an orgasm spontaneously is considered a blessing from god and something sought after while experiencing an orgasm through mortal means is considered a great sin. Also, would it be even possible to compare the degree of ecstasy between the religious orgasm and actual one since Saint Theresa was a virgin and therefore could not compare the two? There's a possibility that it was a mere tingle exaggerated through rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteThe articles of this week have sexual connotations even though Teresa repeatedly mentions that these feelings are only related to spirituality and mysticism. "The pain was so sharp that it made me utter several moans; and so excessive was the sweetness caused my by this intense pain that one can never wish to lose it, nor will one's soul be content with anything less than God." She is speaking about an orgasm but such sexual inferences are unacceptable. Do sexual and spiritual experiences have to be completely separate during this time? Can this erotic pleasure be a connection to God like Teresa felt?
ReplyDeleteIS IT THAT THE TO TWO GREATEST FEELINGS, SENSATIONS ETC. ARE THE LOVE OF GOD AND SEXUAL CLIMAX? ONE IS A SIN GIVEN THE CONTEXT AND THE OTHER IS RESERVED FOR THE MOST SPIRITUAL BEINGS. THE COMPARISON OF ONE WITH THE OTHER IS TROUBLING AND INTERESTING AT THE SAME TIME. I'VE NEVER HEARD A MALES EXPERIENCE WITH SPIRITUAL NIRVANA (if I may) COMPARED TO SEXUAL EXCITEMENT. WHY IS THIS? IS IT BECAUSE OF.. 'DUN DUN DUHN' THE PATRIARCHAL INFLUENCE ON ....EVERYTHING? AND, THUS THE LACK OF THE FEMALE PERSPECTIVE ON ALMOST EVERYTHING (PRE-LATE 2OTH CENTURY FEMINISM)?
ReplyDeleteIn "The Life of Teresa of Jesus" reading, there is a quote that really emphasized and reiterated the messages and themes about the previous week but also about the relationship between religion and individuals talked about all throughout the semester. In the sense that, "it seeks ways and means whereby it may express something of what it feels for the love of God; but its initial pain is so great that I know of no physical torture which can drown it." Mentioned in the very first paragraph of this reading, it immediately warns and explains to the reader the vast impact and sacrifice religious individuals must go through. In this sense, I question, does undergoing the absolute worst pain or life qualify an individual to become worthy in the eyes of God today? How about worthy enough to live a longer life than individuals that have lived a rather simple life? If only one life could be saved, who would you choose? Is there ANY instance in which one life is more valuable (ie. kids, elderly, handicapped, white, etc.)? This particular reading discusses the importance of life in God's eyes, but I think it would be even more valuable and insightful to compare that to aethiests and other cultural groups. Grace Huang.
ReplyDeleteSaint Teresa's vision was probably one of the only ways in which a person could describe this type of ecstasy without it being deemed as 'wrong'. Why wasn't there more of a connection between spiritual and sexual ecstasy? Why didn't society take advantage of the fact that sexual ecstasy could be related to God? It would be interesting to see how the future societies would have been influenced if this had been seen in a slightly different way.
ReplyDeleteOn the second passage under "Saint Teresa's Vision of Transverberations," the author compares Saint Teresa's experience to a woman who had an orgasm while kneeling at an altar. How does something like that occur?
ReplyDeleteI think that the way in which Santa Teresa's spirituality and sexuality were so closely tied is very interesting. How can religion's suppression of sexuality, nuns' reputation for virtue and purity and some nuns' expression of their sexuality be reconciled? What is it about religion that allows women to express their sexuality in a way that they won't be shamed or hated because of it?
ReplyDeleteWhen reading about Saint Teresa's experience, I wonder if it really is so tied to sexuality. The reading says that the pain was more spiritual than physical but that the body played a part. Is it possible that the experience can be likened to strong emotions rather than to a physical act? I know I have definitely had certain emotions after events that were so intense to cause physical aching or joy.
ReplyDelete