While reading the Montaigne article, I noticed several callbacks to previous readings, like the children's song about Marie Germain, who became a man while "straining himself in some way in jumping," and the girl born "all hairy and bristly," because her mother had a picture of Johnthe Baptist over her bed. In the second example, I am wondering why the religious imagery of John the Baptist would result in a hirsute and masculine child. What is the religious significance of this? In a culture and time period that deeply valued piety, why would religious imagery be something that resulted in "mutations?" I wonder if this has anything to do with women's (limited) role in the church.
I found Indiscreet Jewels to be genuinely amusing - not sure if it's a good thing but that's okay. One of the quotes that I found very interest is on page 20, Mirzoza says "You will spread discord in every household, drive every lover to dispair, ruin wives, dishonor maidens" to the Sultan about his usage of the ring. This pretty much implies that most women of the court, no matter how chaste in appearance, still harbor secret affairs that could ruin their reputation. Since this novel was written to satirize the French monarchy, I assume this is meant to poke fun at the monarchy and question the royal mistress' faithfulness. Still, it does make the statement that women are naturally unfaithful. At the end of chapter 8, the elders of a nunnery condemned a young lady after the Sultan made her genitals confess that she harbored desires for a young officer and engaged in masturbation. What was strange was that the elders ordered prayers for the jewels to remain silent - why choose for the jewels to remain silent instead of asking them to all speak up as enforcement? It seems that the elders themselves have once been unable to resist desires so they empathized with the young nun and asked for the jewels to remain silent. Also, prince Chazour canceled his marriage because he heard voices coming from his fiancee's plumbing - never in the novel does the it state that the Sultan did that - is this a statement on the men's own unfaithfulness? Or perhaps a statement on men's extreme - perhaps even paranoid - fear of women's unfaithfulness to the point where they are willing to jump on even the most indirect of evidences?
The authors claim that "whoever can create a natural shape can also take it away" in regards to the male member (58). So, they imply that God must take a part in the illusion or actual loss of the male member. What, then, is the difference between witchcraft and God's wrath? If God gives witches or the Devil permission to create the illusion, does God become wicked? The lack of faith is the primary reason for God's punishment, so where does the line lie between God's punishment and the Devil's wickedness? Additionally, the authors write that "God allows more power of witchcraft over the genital forces" (61). What does this say about the significance of the male phallus? Was the world back then phallus-centric, and how were women punished for lack of faith?
In "The Indiscreet Jewels", Zelmaida responds to Zegris' comment that, "People survive worse accidents" with "What...could be worse than an indiscreet jewel?" Zelmaida, a woman herself, questions Zegris' belief that revealing all of somebody's secrets is something that is not that bad and is not as consequential to the individual with the secrets. However, I agree with Zelmaida's comment that revealing secrets is probably one of the worst things that could happen. It is true that relationships are based off of trust and honesty, but there is an extent to which an individual forms their own opinions or thoughts or actions to which they might be kept secret. It is up to the individual's decision to decide whether or not that information will inhibit or help the relationship. For this reason, I ask, do men or women keep more secrets? Why? Do men care less about what is thought of them and women care more about gossip and society's opinion of them? What does that reveal about society's expectations on women and men? If women keep more secrets, does that mean they are bad people? Grace Huang.
Like some of you, I also found the 'Indiscreet Jewels' entertaining. I think it would be a very interesting theater play.
My questions are the following:
Does the sultan suspect that Mirzoza is hiding something? Is she hiding something at all, or the author only hints to contribute to the suspense and simply create the text more amusing?
Why is the author's agenda (or imposition of prejudices) to make the women villains with many dirty secrets? "All ladies had an air of constraint and spoke only in monosyllables. They were easy, expecting that at any moment a jewel might join in the conversation."
What is the true meaning behind this message? Are they all hiding something? How do you interpret "an illusion of honor"?
What about the part when the Mirzoza's guests talk about Alcina's incident: "There is no middle course; one must either renounce gallantry or be resolved to pass for a woman of pleasure." Everyone agrees that making this choice gives women a place or an image. However, somebody claims the opposite: "No, Madame, no. You will see that women will make the best of it. They will allow their jewels to prate as much as they please, and will go about their business without troubling themselves about what people say. For what difference does it make, daters all, whether it be a woman's jewel or her lover that proves indiscreet? Is one any the less exposed?"
What is the narrator really trying to say here?
Further, jewels of different women at the party talk, "I am visited, battered, neglected, perfumed, fatigues, ill-attended, bored…Society can only benefit tremendously from this [information]…" What does it say about the role of a woman in this society? Has anything changed since?
In Chapter Four of "The Indiscreet Jewels", the genie says "it is impossible to expect women to confess their adventures. That has never been and shall never be". Later, on the same page, he says that women's most honest part is their jewels. This is a recurring theme throughout our readings, such as in Juan Rana, where it was stated that women are not truthful. Is this a recurring theme because women are unable to control themselves and do not want to reveal their deeds or because men are not trusting of women because they worry that their children may not be theirs?
The story "The Indiscreet Jewels" reminded me of society's obsession with controlling female sexuality and virginity. Men demand that their women remain "pure" and chaste, not engaging in relationships with other men. The men in the story, however, are not questioned about their past affairs. What does "The Indiscreet Jewels" say about how women were expected to behave? How does it show society's obsession with controlling women's sexuality? Is this still true today?
I had had the same thought as Harjot, connecting this reading to past readings. Men seem to not trust women, for the fear they won't tell the truth, they lie, they are sneaky, etc. Are men simply afraid of the power of women? Do they feel women are able to control them and so they find they need to belittle them? In this story it says women won't confess their adventures, they never have, and they never will. Why are men so desperate to learn what women have done? I think this is rooted from their fear of women, there untrusting attitude towards women. They want to know everything about a woman so they feel secure and safe in themselves, and like they aren't being left out of something, or out of control and not in command. Yet what is ironic is that the story then says their "jewels" are a females most honest part. Why is this? Because they can't lie? Yet it is all fantasy so what makes their "jewels" so trusting...?
To some extent, Montaigne's essay reminds me of the "Monsters and Marvels" article that we read a couple of weeks ago. In "Monsters and Marvels," the author claims that "the imagination has so much power over seed and reproduction that the stripe and character of them remain [imprinted] on the thing bred." Montaigne's essay seems to be arguing the same thing; he even seems to be referencing the girl born "all hairy and bristly" because her mother had a picture of John the Baptist over her bed. It also seems that Montaigne is defending and advocating religiousity over sorcery and magic for he mentions that "magicians are poor authorities." However, Montaigne seems to be contradicting himself; this can be demonstrated through the example I mentioned earlier. Is Montaigne contradicting himself, and if he is, what is the purpose behind it?
I found the story "The Indiscreet Jewels" to be both entertaining and strange. I couldn't help but notice that they questioned women's sexuality and fidelity while no one posed any challenges to men because they were already known to possess secrets and have affairs. "But it is impossible,' said the genie, 'to expect women to confess their adventures. That has never been and shall never be." Society did not expect women to tell the truth and perceived them to be untrustworthy. What is women's role in society? How are they seen and perceived? The are expected to be chaste and remain virgins but does society really believe that they act in accordance with these expectations? Did they just want to control women and ensure that they remained inferior for their own security?
In 'indiscreet jewels' the first thing that Alcina's jewel says is, 'well, now I have a title'. Given the time period and the way in which women could acquire power this makes a great deal of sense. How does this comment reflect Alcina's character and how is she viewed because of this?
In his essay, Frame writes, " The daughter-in-law of Pythagoras used to say that the women who goes to bed with a man should should put off her modesty with her skirt and put it on again with her petticoat." Is this the old version of "a women should be a lady in the streets but a freak in the sheets"? If so, I was wondering how this double standard was begun.
I found it interesting that in "Malleus Maleficarum", Montaigne uses many examples to back up everything that he says so his credibility becomes stronger, but he also writes many times "as we learn by actual experience". This made me think that there is no reason to doubt that everything Montaigne said about women and witchcraft was true. Why was there a mindset that it was a fact that women were evil, weak, and vulnerable to the devil's work? How have stereotypes, especially those concerning women, risen?
In Montaigne's "Of the power of the imagination", Montaigne discusses how imagination can cause things to happen that otherwise wouldn't and explains how he would like to escape it altogether. He specifically talks about how fear can drive someone over the edge more than the feared event actually would. How controllable is one's imagination whether in fear or in desire? Is it possible to completely remove yourself from pre-event worries and emotions or do you just need to learn how to deal with them?
in Malleus Maleficarum, the author displays an intense misogynistic tendency. The pupularity of the book implies that to the 15th century audience the book was written for, this misogyny was probably a common concept. This is not just the authors unjustified opinion though, he frequently refers to quotations from the bible to support his statements such as "Now the Wickedness of women is spoken in Ecclesiasticus..." Knowing the religious fervor common in this era, it makes perfect sense that women were just thought of as innately evil beings.
While reading the Montaigne article, I noticed several callbacks to previous readings, like the children's song about Marie Germain, who became a man while "straining himself in some way in jumping," and the girl born "all hairy and bristly," because her mother had a picture of Johnthe Baptist over her bed. In the second example, I am wondering why the religious imagery of John the Baptist would result in a hirsute and masculine child. What is the religious significance of this? In a culture and time period that deeply valued piety, why would religious imagery be something that resulted in "mutations?" I wonder if this has anything to do with women's (limited) role in the church.
ReplyDeleteI found Indiscreet Jewels to be genuinely amusing - not sure if it's a good thing but that's okay. One of the quotes that I found very interest is on page 20, Mirzoza says "You will spread discord in every household, drive every lover to dispair, ruin wives, dishonor maidens" to the Sultan about his usage of the ring. This pretty much implies that most women of the court, no matter how chaste in appearance, still harbor secret affairs that could ruin their reputation. Since this novel was written to satirize the French monarchy, I assume this is meant to poke fun at the monarchy and question the royal mistress' faithfulness.
ReplyDeleteStill, it does make the statement that women are naturally unfaithful. At the end of chapter 8, the elders of a nunnery condemned a young lady after the Sultan made her genitals confess that she harbored desires for a young officer and engaged in masturbation. What was strange was that the elders ordered prayers for the jewels to remain silent - why choose for the jewels to remain silent instead of asking them to all speak up as enforcement? It seems that the elders themselves have once been unable to resist desires so they empathized with the young nun and asked for the jewels to remain silent.
Also, prince Chazour canceled his marriage because he heard voices coming from his fiancee's plumbing - never in the novel does the it state that the Sultan did that - is this a statement on the men's own unfaithfulness? Or perhaps a statement on men's extreme - perhaps even paranoid - fear of women's unfaithfulness to the point where they are willing to jump on even the most indirect of evidences?
In regards to Question IX of Malleus Maleficarum:
ReplyDeleteThe authors claim that "whoever can create a natural shape can also take it away" in regards to the male member (58). So, they imply that God must take a part in the illusion or actual loss of the male member. What, then, is the difference between witchcraft and God's wrath? If God gives witches or the Devil permission to create the illusion, does God become wicked? The lack of faith is the primary reason for God's punishment, so where does the line lie between God's punishment and the Devil's wickedness? Additionally, the authors write that "God allows more power of witchcraft over the genital forces" (61). What does this say about the significance of the male phallus? Was the world back then phallus-centric, and how were women punished for lack of faith?
In "The Indiscreet Jewels", Zelmaida responds to Zegris' comment that, "People survive worse accidents" with "What...could be worse than an indiscreet jewel?" Zelmaida, a woman herself, questions Zegris' belief that revealing all of somebody's secrets is something that is not that bad and is not as consequential to the individual with the secrets. However, I agree with Zelmaida's comment that revealing secrets is probably one of the worst things that could happen. It is true that relationships are based off of trust and honesty, but there is an extent to which an individual forms their own opinions or thoughts or actions to which they might be kept secret. It is up to the individual's decision to decide whether or not that information will inhibit or help the relationship. For this reason, I ask, do men or women keep more secrets? Why? Do men care less about what is thought of them and women care more about gossip and society's opinion of them? What does that reveal about society's expectations on women and men? If women keep more secrets, does that mean they are bad people? Grace Huang.
ReplyDeleteLike some of you, I also found the 'Indiscreet Jewels' entertaining. I think it would be a very interesting theater play.
ReplyDeleteMy questions are the following:
Does the sultan suspect that Mirzoza is hiding something? Is she hiding something at all, or the author only hints to contribute to the suspense and simply create the text more amusing?
Why is the author's agenda (or imposition of prejudices) to make the women villains with many dirty secrets? "All ladies had an air of constraint and spoke only in monosyllables. They were easy, expecting that at any moment a jewel might join in the conversation."
What is the true meaning behind this message? Are they all hiding something? How do you interpret "an illusion of honor"?
What about the part when the Mirzoza's guests talk about Alcina's incident: "There is no middle course; one must either renounce gallantry or be resolved to pass for a woman of pleasure."
Everyone agrees that making this choice gives women a place or an image. However, somebody claims the opposite: "No, Madame, no. You will see that women will make the best of it. They will allow their jewels to prate as much as they please, and will go about their business without troubling themselves about what people say. For what difference does it make, daters all, whether it be a woman's jewel or her lover that proves indiscreet? Is one any the less exposed?"
What is the narrator really trying to say here?
Further, jewels of different women at the party talk, "I am visited, battered, neglected, perfumed, fatigues, ill-attended, bored…Society can only benefit tremendously from this [information]…" What does it say about the role of a woman in this society? Has anything changed since?
In Chapter Four of "The Indiscreet Jewels", the genie says "it is impossible to expect women to confess their adventures. That has never been and shall never be". Later, on the same page, he says that women's most honest part is their jewels. This is a recurring theme throughout our readings, such as in Juan Rana, where it was stated that women are not truthful. Is this a recurring theme because women are unable to control themselves and do not want to reveal their deeds or because men are not trusting of women because they worry that their children may not be theirs?
ReplyDeleteThe story "The Indiscreet Jewels" reminded me of society's obsession with controlling female sexuality and virginity. Men demand that their women remain "pure" and chaste, not engaging in relationships with other men. The men in the story, however, are not questioned about their past affairs. What does "The Indiscreet Jewels" say about how women were expected to behave? How does it show society's obsession with controlling women's sexuality? Is this still true today?
ReplyDeleteI had had the same thought as Harjot, connecting this reading to past readings. Men seem to not trust women, for the fear they won't tell the truth, they lie, they are sneaky, etc. Are men simply afraid of the power of women? Do they feel women are able to control them and so they find they need to belittle them? In this story it says women won't confess their adventures, they never have, and they never will. Why are men so desperate to learn what women have done? I think this is rooted from their fear of women, there untrusting attitude towards women. They want to know everything about a woman so they feel secure and safe in themselves, and like they aren't being left out of something, or out of control and not in command. Yet what is ironic is that the story then says their "jewels" are a females most honest part. Why is this? Because they can't lie? Yet it is all fantasy so what makes their "jewels" so trusting...?
ReplyDeleteAbove ^^^^ that was about The Indiscreet Jewels, by Denis Diderot
ReplyDeleteTo some extent, Montaigne's essay reminds me of the "Monsters and Marvels" article that we read a couple of weeks ago. In "Monsters and Marvels," the author claims that "the imagination has so much power over seed and reproduction that the stripe and character of them remain [imprinted] on the thing bred." Montaigne's essay seems to be arguing the same thing; he even seems to be referencing the girl born "all hairy and bristly" because her mother had a picture of John the Baptist over her bed. It also seems that Montaigne is defending and advocating religiousity over sorcery and magic for he mentions that "magicians are poor authorities." However, Montaigne seems to be contradicting himself; this can be demonstrated through the example I mentioned earlier. Is Montaigne contradicting himself, and if he is, what is the purpose behind it?
ReplyDeleteI found the story "The Indiscreet Jewels" to be both entertaining and strange. I couldn't help but notice that they questioned women's sexuality and fidelity while no one posed any challenges to men because they were already known to possess secrets and have affairs. "But it is impossible,' said the genie, 'to expect women to confess their adventures. That has never been and shall never be." Society did not expect women to tell the truth and perceived them to be untrustworthy. What is women's role in society? How are they seen and perceived? The are expected to be chaste and remain virgins but does society really believe that they act in accordance with these expectations? Did they just want to control women and ensure that they remained inferior for their own security?
ReplyDeleteIn 'indiscreet jewels' the first thing that Alcina's jewel says is, 'well, now I have a title'. Given the time period and the way in which women could acquire power this makes a great deal of sense. How does this comment reflect Alcina's character and how is she viewed because of this?
ReplyDeleteIn his essay, Frame writes, " The daughter-in-law of Pythagoras used to say that the women who goes to bed with a man should should put off her modesty with her skirt and put it on again with her petticoat." Is this the old version of "a women should be a lady in the streets but a freak in the sheets"? If so, I was wondering how this double standard was begun.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting that in "Malleus Maleficarum", Montaigne uses many examples to back up everything that he says so his credibility becomes stronger, but he also writes many times "as we learn by actual experience". This made me think that there is no reason to doubt that everything Montaigne said about women and witchcraft was true. Why was there a mindset that it was a fact that women were evil, weak, and vulnerable to the devil's work? How have stereotypes, especially those concerning women, risen?
ReplyDeleteIn Montaigne's "Of the power of the imagination", Montaigne discusses how imagination can cause things to happen that otherwise wouldn't and explains how he would like to escape it altogether. He specifically talks about how fear can drive someone over the edge more than the feared event actually would. How controllable is one's imagination whether in fear or in desire? Is it possible to completely remove yourself from pre-event worries and emotions or do you just need to learn how to deal with them?
ReplyDeletein Malleus Maleficarum, the author displays an intense misogynistic tendency. The pupularity of the book implies that to the 15th century audience the book was written for, this misogyny was probably a common concept. This is not just the authors unjustified opinion though, he frequently refers to quotations from the bible to support his statements such as "Now the Wickedness of women is spoken in Ecclesiasticus..." Knowing the religious fervor common in this era, it makes perfect sense that women were just thought of as innately evil beings.
ReplyDelete